NAR's Newest Demon--Talk To Action
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 at 07:52:07 PM EST
We are pleased to welcome Greg Metzger as a guest front pager. He is an independent writer whose work has appeared in Christian Century, Commonweal, and Books & Culture.  His blog is Debating Obama, where this essay first appeared -- with lots more links. -- FC

I guess I should have seen it coming. I have been reading enough of C. Peter Wagner lately to know that he sees the demonic in everything (including the Statue of Liberty), so I should not have been surprised that he has taken to attacking the major source of information available about the New Apostolic Reformation (outside of Wagner's own house organs, which are notorious for their guarding of basic information). Yet there is something so jarring and spiritually disturbing about his decision to cast Talk To Action as the "voice of the accuser" that I really was surprised when I saw it.
Unlike the other objects and ideas that Wagner has consistently and literally demonized, I know many of the writers at Talk To Action. While I do not agree with everything at their website, I have come to value their work and admire their dogged determination to explain what NAR is and why it matters. If NAR were an ordinary Christian organization I would have expected them to respond to the criticisms and concerns expressed by Talk To Action with facts and counterarguments. I would have expected them to contact the writers personally and present their responses to whatever reporting they disagree with. I have had lengthy correspondence and even phone conversations with writers at Talk To Action and I can attest that it is possible to reach them without much trouble.  But NAR is anything but a normal Christian organization, NAR has ushered in THE SECOND APOSTOLIC AGE. NAR is THE NEW WINE SKIN FOR THESE END-TIMES. NAR is TAKING OVER THE DEVIL'S TERRITORY AROUND THE WORLD.  And since NAR is clearly all of these things, that automatically makes anyone or any institution that criticizes it not merely wrong or mistaken, but the voice of the devil.  And since we defeat the devil by prayer, the perfect way to alert people of the sinister works of the devil through Talk To Action is the tried and true form of the prayer letter. Here, then, is a portion of a recent Wagner prayer letter:

"For those of you who would like to know more of the type of things that are being said and      portrayed concerning Peter and Doris, Cindy Jacobs and Lou Engle, and many others, you can go to www.talk2action.org.  This gives a clear representation of what is being discussed even in conservative Christian arenas.  We need to pray that all false accusations and the voice of the accuser of the brethren be silenced in the name of Jesus! (Emphasis added)  Again, Peter and Doris want to express their sincere gratitude in your faithfulness to stand in intercession on their behalf.  They know without this prayer shield that many situations would not have the breakthroughs and victories they see on a daily basis.  I also want to express how crucial your prayer support is right now for Peter and Doris.  Now is not the time to be lax in our prayers, but remain vigilant on the wall.  Thank you for diligently contending and warring on their behalf. "

What is particularly interesting about this "prayer request" is the way that Wagner has attempted to label Talk To Action as the source for what is being discussed in "conservative Christian arenas".  The reality is that, for all I admire about Talk To Action, their website is anything but representative of the types of concerns that "conservative Christians" have about the New Apostolic Reformation. In fact, many of the posts at their site are about Religious Right groups and individuals not at all about the New Apostolic Reformation. One senses here Wagner's desire to present criticism of NAR as being criticism of the religious right in general, and to present conservative Christian critics of NAR as being in step with the broader purposes of Talk To Action.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  For evidence of the difference simply visit these three leading conservative Christian websites that are documenting what they consider to be NAR's heretical teachings:

   

The Apologetics Coordination Team

    Critical Issues Commentary

    Let Us Reason Ministries

Wagner's demonization of Talk To Action is bad enough; his deceptive presentation of explicitly Christian critics only amplifies the outrage.  Wagner and NAR have grown accustom to making their outrageous claims about demons, dominion and the end-times with impunity.  As the light begins to shine brighter, and the audacity of their claims is understood and more widely refuted, expect more and more accusations to come from those who claim to be fighting "the accuser of our souls."



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NAR's Newest Demon--Talk To Action | 28 comments (28 topical, 0 hidden)
I am not surprised... (5.00 / 2)
...because I have personally been targeted in NAR pushbacks though not on this scale since it wasn't in national media--it was due to my activity and that of others on a cult discussion forum, albeit one that got their attention.

One has to remember that they have alternative, coded meanings for terms that typically mean something else to the general public or to the Christian subcommunity.  In CPW's parlance, "conservative Christian" means those who are under the control of a "religious spirit" keeping them from accepting the "new wineskins" of the New Apostolic Reformation and resisting their governmental authority, thus keeping them from assuming their rightful role as apostolic leaders of earth ushering in Christ's their millennial reign.  And yes, they do absolutely believe that they have literal governmental authority, or at least the divine mandate for such.

So the fact that they are characterizing this site as "conservative Christian" doesn't necessarily mean they believe it is, BUT it may mean that it is being read BY Christians who are wondering what this NAR thing is all about, just like Deception in the Church/Apologetics Coordination Team, Let Us Reason, etc. and that as you pointed out, they wish to paint it in the same brush with those websites (which can be very helpful for Christians trying to get out of groups like those, BTW).

The thing that the NAR and their subgroups are most afraid of is that Christians, particularly "conservative Christians" in more colloquial terms, will "get it" and speak out, because they can't be so easily discredited as unchristian sinners, demon possessed, etc.

I will say though that unless they think T2A has done something they feel is deserving of something more significant, their attacks will likely be more of the same.  I was really afraid for a while when the Every Nation leadership started making veiled and not so veiled threats about some of the things I and others were posting online (mostly of the legal variety)... but then it dawned on me they were more afraid of me than I of them.  As long as I knew that and acted accordingly they really couldn't (and didn't) do much beyond stuff like this.

by ulyankee on Thu Oct 13, 2011 at 08:32:44 PM EST

I would love (5.00 / 1)
to hear more of this story ulyankee. When did this happen to you? Where have you blogged at? Do you know former NAR people who left it? Thanks for sharing.

by gregmetzger on Thu Oct 13, 2011 at 11:02:40 PM EST
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A number of years ago now... (5.00 / 1)
I and several others were active on the FACTNet cult discussion forums several years ago, approx 2004-2008... the discussions were very active until FACTNet went to a "pay to post" format which essentially shut it down.  A few of us paid our dues but it was difficult to keep a discussion up... though for a while it was still a high traffic site and was among the most active discussions on FACTNet.  We were discussing Every Nation (prev. Morning Star International), which is directly descended from Maranatha Campus Ministries.  Most of Every Nation's top leaders were leaders in Maranatha, and some of its current churches/ministries are corporately former Maranatha subgroups.  

Most of the former (and current) members who posted on FACTNet focused just on the group per se, but a couple of us, including me, were really concerned about its positioning in the NAR.  My theory is that Maranatha's nascient dominionism, demonology, etc. became much more entrenched and institutionalized as EN developed, and that Maranatha/EN was an influence on CPW and the NAR, and vice versa.  Anyway, CPW was the keynote speaker for Every Nation's international conference in I think 2004 when they announced their name change from Morning Star International (which was when the cult discussions were really taking off so I think that had something to do with the name change).  Anecdotally some people came away from the conference with the impression that CPW was leading EN leadership.  I have the conference CD and his talk was almost exactly the same as the one given elsewhere transcribed on Deception in the Church's website (which I transcribed and sent to them--since you are familiar with their site you've probably seen it).

I think among of the things that really got their attention was (1) we figured out how their governance and financial structures worked and (2) we figured out their real theology (which they hid more and more after the Maranatha "break up" which really wasn't a total break up but a break with Bob Weiner, their former leader).

There were some rumors that some of us might be targeted in defamation lawsuits and I know at least one was actually filed as the person targeted ended up retracting their posts and no longer posted online.  But I tried to keep things really clean and on the up and up... not say anything factual unless it was documented, make sure that any opinions were stated as such, and limit critiques to "public figures" aka published authors and/or top leaders.

But this group was absolutely part of the NAR, was very close to Wagner, and at least two of its leaders (Rice Broocks and Jim Laffoon) were on his top apostolic councils.  Due to the FACTNet discussions they supposedly broke with Wagner but I've seen evidence since then that they really haven't, they're just not on the ICA's documented membership roll.

I came close to burn out and after I presented on EN at the ICSA's international conference a few years back and that plus what happened on FACTNet when it went pay to post I decided to step back a while... by then EN was reeling from the downfall of its pro athletic ministry (which was a big source of income), US churches leaving the network, and finally the recession (a lot of their second level leaders really did try to "buy" localities, one upscale neighborhood in the Nashville metro area specifically, and appear to have gotten burned in the real estate crash), and I really didn't have any more to say that would shed any more light on them. I said that would be it for a while.

BTW, when CPW's Dominion! came out, the first thing I thought of was Bob Weiner's Take Dominion! which came out just a year or two before Maranatha's "break up" in 1989.

by ulyankee on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 10:18:27 AM EST
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Wagner and Weiner (none / 0)
IN at least two of his books, CPW references Bob Weiner's dominion theology as centrally important to the NAR conception of dominion theology.

by Bruce Wilson on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 04:38:49 PM EST
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Thank you for being here Talk2Action! (5.00 / 1)
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Mohandas Gandhi


by TomBishop on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 10:47:38 AM EST

Why do we care what they think? (5.00 / 1)
As one who is under siege personally from NAR due to my organization's opposition to Dominionism, I think this is a badge of honor for Talk2Action. I think it highly unlikely that they can pray you out of existence or in any other way silence your exposure of their actions. The fact that they noticed is clear evidence that what you are writing, what we all are doing, is compelling. NAR in all its infinite variety, labors best in the shadows. Shine a little light on them and their plans, and they need to fight back. Every voice that is raised in opposition will command their attention, but it also will illuminate their dark vision and predatory politics. Keep up the good work. The bigger their outrage, the more they reveal, and public disclosure is harmful to them, not to you, not to us.

by Churchlady on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 01:29:32 PM EST

Do you hear what I hear? (4.00 / 1)
If Wagner were smart, he'd realize that Talk2Action isn't the one he should fear, but his own followers. The language Wagner uses is very similar to Anwar al-Awlaki, the American citizen assassinated by the CIA for inciting violence in his followers in th