Frivolous Filing: TV Preacher's Legal Group Sues To Block Islamic Center In New York City
Rob Boston printable version print page     Bookmark and Share
Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 11:34:09 AM EST
Yesterday, New York City's Landmarks Preservation Commission voted unanimously to allow construction of an Islamic center in lower Manhattan. Immediately after the vote, TV preacher Pat Robertson's American Center for Law and Justice announced that it would file suit to block the move.

Why is an organization that purports to promote religious freedom suing to stop construction of house of worship?
It's a good question, and the answer is simple: naked religious bigotry.

Some people are furious because this facility, called the Cordoba House, is only two blocks from Ground Zero, site of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. They have taken to calling the center the "Ground Zero Mosque."

There are a few problems with that description. First off, it's not a mosque. The Cordoba House (also known as "Park 51"), will contain a prayer room, but it's mainly an Islamic center. Its backers, moderate Muslims who have condemned al Qaeda terrorists, say their intention is to build bridges of understanding and strengthen moderate forms of Islam. The facility will also contain a restaurant, retail space, a fitness center and meeting rooms.

In the United States, religious groups are free to erect meeting spaces as long as they comply with land-use laws. The Cordoba House has already done that, so what possible grounds does the ACLJ have to oppose this facility?

Grasping at any legal straw, Jay Sekulow, the attorney who runs the ACLJ, says the building at the Cordoba House site, which is slated to be razed, is historic and must be saved.

In a press release, Sekulow calls the building, which dates to the 1850s, "historic and hallowed" and claims that his group's opposition is "not based upon fear, hostility or prejudice, but rather the unique architectural and historical characteristics of the building and the public's interest in preserving the history of the September 11th events."

But in fact, the public has shown little interest in preserving the building. It was severely damaged during the attack and sat empty until its purchase in 2009. The building was not especially iconic before the attack: It housed a Burlington Coat Factory store.

Yesterday, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg eloquently explained why Sekulow and his band of Muslim-bashers are wrong.

Bloomberg rightly portrayed the issue as one of separation of church and state. In America, he pointed out, the government has no authority to deny religious groups the right to meet and build facilities simply because some people don't like those groups.

"I believe that this is an important test of the separation of church and state as we may see in our lifetimes, as important a test," Bloomberg said. "And it is critically important that we get it right."

Thomas Jefferson would also rebuke those who pander to the base emotions of hate, fear and rage. When his landmark Virginia Statute for Religious Liberty became law, Jefferson rejoiced that efforts to limits its protections to Christians were turned back.

The law, Jefferson enthused, would protect "the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, the infidel of every denomination."

As disturbing as this incident is, it has some value: It has, beyond all doubt, exposed Sekulow for what he has always been: a Religious Right operative who wants the government to give preferential treatment to Christianity and second-class status to nonbelievers and adherents of other faiths. He seems ready to blame all Muslims for actions of an extremist faction of that faith.

The irony is rich. Sekuow, after all, would be the first to complain if he were lumped in with fundamentalist Christian extremists who shoot abortion providers and bomb women's clinics.

Sekulow is free to descend to the level of those so blinded by rage and hate that they would trash one of our core constitutional principles. But as he does so, he should be honest about what he his cohorts are up to: They are mocking, not upholding, America's great tradition of religious liberty.

P.S.: The Washington Post and The New York Times have thoughtful editorials about this issue today. They deserve some of your time.  



To discuss this story, sign up for a free account

Display:
Frivolous Filing: TV Preacher's Legal Group Sues To Block Islamic Center In New York City | 17 comments (17 topical, 0 hidden)
Attitudes (5.00 / 1)
There was a poll on my ISP regarding this issue- almost 80% of the people said that having the center was an insult to America.  Only a tiny portion thought it might be a move towards healing, and about the same (maybe about 10% each) thought of the separation of church and state.

I was never so disgusted with the dominionists and their cohorts as I was when I saw that.  It's racism and religion-based bigotry, pure and simple.  I also believe that the organization behind that center is one that is REALLY trying to make some positive changes in moderate Islam- trying to fight any aspect of fundamentalist thinking, for instance.  They should be supported- they oppose Islamic triumphalism as much as we oppose Christian triumphalism.  They, if they are who I think they are, are an organization I appreciate.

by ArchaeoBob on Wed Aug 04, 2010 at 01:44:32 PM EST


Correction (5.00 / 1)
No religion murdered 3000 people on 9-11-2001.

19 fanatical extremists did.

I could say that the Catholic Church murdered 6 million Jews in the Holocaust, and you would be correct to argue that just because Hitler was raised Catholic, doesn't mean he was a good Catholic, or that he represented the Roman Catholic Church's beliefs, teachings, or will, by his actions.

I could also say that Baptists are guilty of murdering a quarter million Liberians on the grounds that Pat Robertson referred to former Pres. Charles Taylor as his 'fellow Baptist" and you would again be correct to point out that just because he was called a Baptist, doesn't mean he represents or reflects their beliefs and practices.

Entire religions can not be held responsible for the actions of one, or several, or even many radical extremists.

by GenieO on Wed Aug 04, 2010 at 08:38:50 PM EST


Well Said (5.00 / 1)
As disturbing as this incident is, it has some value: It has, beyond all doubt, exposed Sekulow for what he has always been: a Religious Right operative who wants the government to give preferential treatment to Christianity and second-class status to nonbelievers and adherents of other faiths. He seems ready to blame all Muslims for actions of an extremist faction of that faith.

And their whining about the ACLU rings even more hollow too.

by tacitus on Wed Aug 04, 2010 at 11:46:47 PM EST

Am I a secular bogot because I object to Cordoba? (1.00 / 1)
The religion that murdered 3,000 people is building a mosque at Ground Zero? At a cost of 100 million dollars? (And not funded by Saudi Arabia?) And worse yet, it's called Cordoba.
Do you have no idea that the name of the mosque - Cordoba House - is uncoincidentally, the name of the conceit Islam planted in Spain as a symbol of their conquest? They have always plant mosques on conquered territory as a symbol of their supremacy. Don't you think that is how the muslim world will see it? They plan to open it next year on September 11. Do you think that's respectful or an insult?
In the words of Pat Condell, maybe they should plant it on land more fitting to their aims, like Death Valley perhaps.
Well since I'm not religious you can't call me a religious bigot for voicing my opposition to this insult to the victims of 9/11.


by PastorJennifer on Wed Aug 04, 2010 at 02:35:24 PM EST
Huh??? (5.00 / 1)
Not religious- but you call yourself "PastorJennifer"???  That immediately throws up red flags.

Second, the center is not being built AT Ground Zero.  Near, maybe.

Third, is "planting mosques" any different than what Christians do?  Indeed, I do know that "Christians" not only plant churches - they also have been known to destroy the religious centers/holy places of people from other religions.  That's not just ancient history, btw- Pentecostals/Dominionists have disrupted ceremonies and destroyed religious items from other religions as recently as a couple of years ago (to my knowledge).  They're persecuting non-Christians in others, and trying to force their idea of "Christianity" on everyone else.  As this research blog demonstrates, it's a big problem... otherwise we wouldn't be fighting it.  THERE IS LITTLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM AND FUNDAMENTALIST "CHRISTIANITY" except in names.  The goals are so alike that it's hard to distinguish them based upon that aspect.

Fourth, your argument about "Cordoba" has no meaning to me.  If you want to make any headway with that- find out what Cordoba meant in the language of the time (and of the Islamic people who invaded Spain) and what it implied.  That would have more meaning than just a name- which for all we know, might mean "tolerance" or "acceptance" or something like that.

And finally, as long as it's not funded with blood money or tax money - who cares who funded it?  I've known quite a few churches that were founded on blood (I can argue that most of old American churches started that way- on the blood of my ancestors and the sweat and blood of African slaves).  What you seem to be implying is that the funding is somehow connected with terrorism.  Well, guess what?  Islam does NOT equal Terrorism.  If you want to go there- well, I can argue just as strongly that "Christianity" equals Terrorism JUST AS MUCH (Army of God anyone???).

The rejection of this Islamic center is bigotry, pure and simple.


by ArchaeoBob on Wed Aug 04, 2010 at 03:50:34 PM EST
Parent

Pentecostals/Dominionists disrupting ceremonies (5.00 / 1)
Archaeobob wrote:

Indeed, I do know that "Christians" not only plant churches - they also have been known to destroy the religious centers/holy places of people from other religions.  That's not just ancient history, btw- Pentecostals/Dominionists have disrupted ceremonies and destroyed religious items from other religions as recently as a couple of years ago (to my knowledge).  They're persecuting non-Christians in others, and trying to force their idea of "Christianity" on everyone else.

This doesn't surprise me, but I would appreciate it very much if you could put together (perhaps as a separate post) a documented collection of info about recent incidents in which Pentecostals/Dominionists have disrupted ceremonies of other religions.


by Diane Vera on Fri Aug 06, 2010 at 10:30:09 AM EST
Parent

No way to document it right now (5.00 / 1)
I think a couple of things have been posted on T2A about this in the past year or so (but only covering a couple of incidences, mainly out west that made the public).  I can say that it's happened, but would have to get permission- and talk to the people involved, before I say more.

Finding the individuals might be difficult, because the stories I heard (and I've learned that they're usually fairly accurate) are from other tribes and other areas.  What I heard wasn't specific to who and exact locality... you can see how it could become quite difficult and political.

There are confidentiality issues involved- some stricter than in the American legal system.  I've said about all I can from my own knowledge without violating those rules... although some of the incidences I've heard about may have made the news or police reports.  It's not likely, but possible.

by ArchaeoBob on Fri Aug 06, 2010 at 01:23:38 PM EST
Parent

I will say (none / 0)
That I've heard of ceremonial items being stolen.  Now, the thing that has to be kept in mind is that "Collectors" will pay good money for things that have deep and special meaning for us, but are just "play-pretties" for them.   Having said that, there does seem to be a Dominionist connection in some cases.  There is one case I can relate, because it WAS reported, and I witnessed it.

I was at a powwow where a ceremonial staff had been taken right out of a man's private tent.  It wasn't your ordinary staff either...

It took him a year to make, and had special significance for multiple reasons.  Witnesses saw a man and three boys (pre-teen through mid teens) crossing the field and getting into a car while carrying something suspiciously like the staff, and the original thought was that it was taken by the Boy Scouts (who have a horrible reputation for stealing artifacts and cultural items from us).  The funny thing was- one of the local dominionist megachurch preachers had preached against us just a short time before and they were (and are) very hostile towards Native America.  The staff never showed again.

Now I'm suspicious.


by ArchaeoBob on Fri Aug 06, 2010 at 05:46:37 PM EST
Parent



Re: disruption of First Nations ceremonials (none / 0)
An additional data point I can add is recorded at no less than the Museum of the American Indian (in Washington, DC) at the Yurok Nation exhibit--the ceremonial leader notes that the White Deer Ceremony has been repeatedly interrupted and interfered with by (apparently) NAR groups conducting "spiritual warfare" and further promoting the concept that traditional ceremonies are "devil worship".  (This is especially egregrious as the White Deer Ceremony has only recently (within the past 30 years or so) been resurrected among the Yurok First Nation, and had been specifically outlawed beforehand.)

Another data point--well recorded by Rachel Tabachnick and Bruce Wilson--has been the increasing promotion of "Messianic Powwows" and "Messianic Potlatches" by NAR-linked groups.  Mary Glazier and Eleanor Roehl (both in C. Peter Wagner's International Coalition of Apostles) are particularly infamous for this; Glazier was promoting "Messianic Powwows" as early as 1999 in a First Nations online newsletter (now defunct) called "The People's Paths", and both parties promote "Messianic Potlaches" in various First Nations communities in Alaska.  (They are also far from alone; there are entire groups, particularly linked with NARasitised Assemblies and Foursquare churches in areas with larger First Nations populations, that explicitly target ceremonials with "Messianic" versions in much the same way that Jewish people are targeted by "Messianic Seders" and neopente-linked "Messianic Judaism".)

by dogemperor on Fri Aug 06, 2010 at 02:26:01 PM EST
Parent

I'd add... (5.00 / 1)
I've heard of "Messianic Stomp Dances".  (Originally from dogemperor, but within the year from another source.)

by ArchaeoBob on Fri Aug 06, 2010 at 02:35:46 PM EST
Parent


Other disruptions of indigenous faiths (none / 0)
There is also a report (it's in the back archives of Dark Christianity--the post is here) in that indigenous African ceremonials have also been targeted--specifically in NAR-linked "revivals" there have been mass burnings of non-Christian religious and cultural relics, including repeated looting of shrines in use and calls for destruction of archaeologically significant bronzes.

by dogemperor on Fri Aug 06, 2010 at 02:31:15 PM EST
Parent

And still more documentation (none / 0)
In several books on Korean haneolism (the traditional pre-Buddhist shamanic faith system which is undergoing a bit of a revival after having been supressed) mansin (traditional Korean medicine women) have reported their ceremonies being disrupted by dominionist groups, again under the name of "spiritual warfare".   Furthermore, mansin are essentially condemned as Satanists (using pretty much the exact terminology used with "Satanic Panic" in the 80s), and dominionists in Korean communities have a legit fear of being shunned or worse even if they meet up with a mansin for non-shamanic counseling purposes.

There is even a record in a scholarly study of mansin (Youngsook Kim Harvey's "Six Korean Women: The Socialization of Shamans") detailing the destruction of a mansin's shrine and her (apparently forced) conversion by her husband (who had voluntarily converted to Christianity).

(Of note, many of these articles use the term mudang, which is considered derogatory.  I have used the preferred term mansin, meaning (roughly) "spirit worker".)

Not only have mansin and their shrines been attacked, but Buddhist temples have also been attacked in arsons and acts of vandalism (painting of red crosses) linked to dominionist groups, and in at least one case a statue of Dangun Wanggeom (the traditional founder of Korea, and in Haneolist belief, the grandson of Heaven) was also defaced.  In one instance, a Christian minister actually used a microphone as a bolo to smash and desecrate a Buddhist shrine; in another incident, dominionist domestic-terrorists destroyed the facilities of a Buddhist television station two days before it was scheduled to go on air.  (These acts are documented in Frank Tedesco's "Questions for Buddhist and Christian Cooperation in Korea," Buddhist-Christian Studies 17 (1997) available in second revision here.)

In addition, there is evidence of a pro-Christian bias in South Korea's government that has directly impeded investigation of hate crimes against non-Christian houses of worship; this has led to formal protests by the Buddhist community in South Korea.

(This is particularly relevant as in South Korea the main dominionist group is a very large, NARasitised Assemblies of God church run by Paul Yonggi Cho (nee David Yonggi Cho) that effectively is the Assemblies; it is the largest megachurch in the world (with over 800,000 members), has been alleged to have itself engaged in "cultural theft" from Haneolist beliefs as well as borrowed coercive tactices from Soka Gakkai International, and widely popularised the concept of "cell churches" and discipling-and-shepherding movements in the Assemblies.  He also has been linked with "planting" of NAR-linked "Third Wave" revivals worldwide.)

by dogemperor on Fri Aug 06, 2010 at 03:25:02 PM EST
Parent


And another, right from the horses' mouths (none / 0)
And if that weren't enough, Niegel Bigpond claims to have destroyed First Nations ceremonial goods in a NAR ceremony (Bigpond is of the Euchee First Nation, is a known ICA member, and (along with Jay Swallow--of Southern Cheyenne Nation descent--and Ada Winn of the Western Band of Cherokee) operates a NARasite "training center" targeting First Nations people called Two Rivers Native American Training Center).

The group Bigpond is affiliated with (Two Rivers) is of particular concern as it holds a "Messianic Powwow" faux culture expo under the name of "SWAT Training".  There is in fact some evidence that the seminar is promoted as, and may in fact include, pseudo-AIM paramilitary training; it is at any rate unmistakably militarised, and its promotional material for other NAR churches explicitly describes it as a military base camp.

Its catalog primarily sells materials from "Head NARasite" C. Peter Wagner.

(Of note, this is further evidence of what I was talking about with Rachel Tabachnick having particular evidence of this sort of thing; the destruction of ceremonial materials was noted in a glossary she recently posted of "spiritual warfare" terminology in common use in NARasitised groups.

by dogemperor on Fri Aug 06, 2010 at 03:56:27 PM EST
Parent




Cordoba (5.00 / 1)
A quick search of internet encyclopaedias indicates that Cordoba, Spain, is the primary city of the province of the same name. It was indeed a center of Moorish culture during the time that the Moors ruled Spain, but its beginning dates long before that ~ probably Cartheginian in origin. It is also the name of a Spanish explorer and a city in Argentina. It seems to me that naming a Muslim center "Cordoba" simply honors a place name from history, rather in the same way that Christians name churches and communities such things as Jerusalem, Bethlehem, and Bethany. There is nothing particularly sinister or conspiratorial about that. I am much more concerned about those who would diminish our nation's commitment to free speech and free exercise of religion than I am about a group from a non-Christian religion's demolishing a derelict structure and building a community center in its place.

by MLouise on Wed Aug 04, 2010 at 04:18:44 PM EST
Parent
Thanks for doing the digging! (5.00 / 1)
I didn't know much of the history of the province or city... I knew it was old and that's about it.

I thought the name was Moorish and might have had some meaning (obviously, wrong).  I wonder what it came from.

by ArchaeoBob on Wed Aug 04, 2010 at 07:27:14 PM EST
Parent


And Also... (5.00 / 1)
It's actually more than just the name of a historical Moorish city.  The Imam chose it because when the city of Cordoba was at its height, there was a period of religious tolerance where Jews and Christians were allowed to worship openly and freely and pretty much go about their daily lives in unmolested.  They were not considered equal with Muslims under the law, but by the standards of the time, it was an unusually tolerant time in long history of marred with conflict.

I have seen the vicious anti-Muslim propaganda about the name of the mosque being spread all over the place, and the commenter above should be embarrassed that she fell for it so easily.

And it's not as though Christianity has been squeaky clean with their wholesale conquering of heathen nations and forced conversions to Christianity over a long period of hundreds of years.

by tacitus on Wed Aug 04, 2010 at 11:58:56 PM EST
Parent




I believe this filing is a fund-raising gimmick. (none / 0)
They know they don't have a legal leg to stand on.

The "ACLJ" will use this to push all the buttons of their uninformed contributors--patriotism, religion, revenge, righteous anger, fear of liberalism, fear of foreigners (especially the dark ones), etc.

by mayfly on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 10:36:32 PM EST


Frivolous Filing: TV Preacher's Legal Group Sues To Block Islamic Center In New York City | 17 comments (17 topical, 0 hidden)

WWW Talk To Action


Cognitive Dissonance & Dominionism Denial
There is new research on why people are averse to hearing or learning about the views of ideological opponents. Based on evaluation of five......
By Frederick Clarkson (375 comments)
Will the Air Force Do Anything To Rein In Its Dynamic Duo of Gay-Bashing, Misogynistic Bloggers?
"I always get nervous when I see female pastors/chaplains. Here is why everyone should as well: "First, women are not called to be pastors,......
By Chris Rodda (203 comments)
The Legacy of Big Oil
The media is ablaze with the upcoming publication of David Grann's book, Killers of the Flower Moon. The shocking non fiction account of the......
By wilkyjr (111 comments)
Gimme That Old Time Dominionism Denial
Over the years, I have written a great deal here and in other venues about the explicitly theocratic movement called dominionism -- which has......
By Frederick Clarkson (101 comments)
History Advisor to Members of Congress Completely Twists Jefferson's Words to Support Muslim Ban
Pseudo-historian David Barton, best known for his misquoting of our country's founders to promote the notion that America was founded as a Christian nation,......
By Chris Rodda (113 comments)
"Christian Fighter Pilot" Calls First Lesbian Air Force Academy Commandant a Liar
In a new post on his "Christian Fighter Pilot" blog titled "BGen Kristin Goodwin and the USAFA Honor Code," Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan......
By Chris Rodda (144 comments)
Catholic Right Leader Unapologetic about Call for 'Death to Liberal Professors' -- UPDATED
Today, Donald Trump appointed C-FAM Executive Vice President Lisa Correnti to the US Delegation To UN Commission On Status Of Women. (C-FAM is a......
By Frederick Clarkson (126 comments)
Controlling Information
     Yesterday I listened to Russ Limbaugh.  Rush advised listeners it would be best that they not listen to CNN,MSNBC, ABC, CBS and......
By wilkyjr (118 comments)
Is Bannon Fifth-Columning the Pope?
In December 2016 I wrote about how White House chief strategist Steve Bannon, who likes to flash his Catholic credentials when it comes to......
By Frank Cocozzelli (251 comments)
Ross Douthat's Hackery on the Seemingly Incongruous Alliance of Bannon & Burke
Conservative Catholic writer Ross Douthat has dissembled again. This time, in a February 15, 2017 New York Times op-ed titled The Trump Era's Catholic......
By Frank Cocozzelli (65 comments)
`So-Called Patriots' Attack The Rule Of Law
Every so often, right-wing commentator Pat Buchanan lurches out of the far-right fever swamp where he has resided for the past 50 years to......
By Rob Boston (161 comments)
Bad Faith from Focus on the Family
Here is one from the archives, Feb 12, 2011, that serves as a reminder of how deeply disingenuous people can be. Appeals to seek......
By Frederick Clarkson (177 comments)
The Legacy of George Wallace
"One need not accept any of those views to agree that they had appealed to real concerns of real people, not to mindless, unreasoning......
By wilkyjr (70 comments)
Betsy DeVos's Mudsill View of Public Education
My Talk to Action colleague Rachel Tabachnick has been doing yeoman's work in explaining Betsy DeVos's long-term strategy for decimating universal public education. If......
By Frank Cocozzelli (80 comments)
Prince and DeVos Families at Intersection of Radical Free Market Privatizers and Religious Right
This post from 2011 surfaces important information about President-Elect Trump's nominee for Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos. -- FC Erik Prince, Brother of Betsy......
By Rachel Tabachnick (218 comments)

Respect for Others? or Political Correctness?
The term "political correctness" as used by Conservatives and Republicans has often puzzled me: what exactly do they mean by it? After reading Chip Berlin's piece here-- http://www.talk2action.org/story/2016/7/21/04356/9417 I thought about what he explained......
MTOLincoln (253 comments)
Fear
What I'm feeling now is fear.  I swear that it seems my nightmares are coming true with this new "president".  I'm also frustrated because so many people are not connecting all the dots! I've......
ArchaeoBob (107 comments)
"America - love it or LEAVE!"
I've been hearing that and similar sentiments fairly frequently in the last few days - far FAR more often than ever before.  Hearing about "consequences for burning the flag (actions) from Trump is chilling!......
ArchaeoBob (214 comments)
"Faked!" Meme
Keep your eyes and ears open for a possible move to try to discredit the people openly opposing Trump and the bigots, especially people who have experienced terrorism from the "Right"  (Christian Terrorism is......
ArchaeoBob (165 comments)
More aggressive proselytizing
My wife told me today of an experience she had this last week, where she was proselytized by a McDonald's employee while in the store. ......
ArchaeoBob (163 comments)
See if you recognize names on this list
This comes from the local newspaper, which was conservative before and took a hard right turn after it was sold. Hint: Sarah Palin's name is on it!  (It's also connected to Trump.) ......
ArchaeoBob (169 comments)
Unions: A Labor Day Discussion
This is a revision of an article which I posted on my personal board and also on Dailykos. I had an interesting discussion on a discussion board concerning Unions. I tried to piece it......
Xulon (180 comments)
Extremely obnoxious protesters at WitchsFest NYC: connected to NAR?
In July of this year, some extremely loud, obnoxious Christian-identified protesters showed up at WitchsFest, an annual Pagan street fair here in NYC.  Here's an account of the protest by Pagan writer Heather Greene......
Diane Vera (130 comments)
Capitalism and the Attack on the Imago Dei
I joined this site today, having been linked here by Crooksandliars' Blog Roundup. I thought I'd put up something I put up previously on my Wordpress blog and also at the DailyKos. As will......
Xulon (331 comments)
History of attitudes towards poverty and the churches.
Jesus is said to have stated that "The Poor will always be with you" and some Christians have used that to refuse to try to help the poor, because "they will always be with......
ArchaeoBob (149 comments)
Alternate economy medical treatment
Dogemperor wrote several times about the alternate economy structure that dominionists have built.  Well, it's actually made the news.  Pretty good article, although it doesn't get into how bad people could be (have been)......
ArchaeoBob (90 comments)
Evidence violence is more common than believed
Think I've been making things up about experiencing Christian Terrorism or exaggerating, or that it was an isolated incident?  I suggest you read this article (linked below in body), which is about our great......
ArchaeoBob (214 comments)

More Diaries...




All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Comments, posts, stories, and all other content are owned by the authors. Everything else © 2005 Talk to Action, LLC.