Audience Laughs at a Candidate Who Questions Church/State Separation
Frederick Clarkson printable version print page     Bookmark and Share
Tue Oct 19, 2010 at 11:27:29 PM EST
There has been a lot of derision of Delaware U.S. Senate candidate Christine O'Donnell in the wake of her debate performance against Democrat Chris Coons.

O'Donnell, apparently steeped in Religious Right ideology, stumbled so badly on a critical point about the U.S. Constitution and the separation of church and state that, as The Wall Street Journal reported, "the audience exploded in laughter."

This must have come as a surprise to many Beltway Insiders.  There was a time, not so long ago, when prominent Democratic political consultants Mara Vanderslice and Eric Sapp were advising candidates not to use the phrase separation of church and state, because (echoing the Religious Right) the phrase is not in the Constitution and because, as Vanderslice claimed it "raises red flags with people of faith."  

For his part, Sapp wrote "In case anyone doesn't know, [the phrase] "separation of church and state" is not in the Constitution. It shouldn't be in our vocabulary as Democrats either."

This is part of a wider, long term pattern of some Democrats adopting key elements the framing of the Religious Right as it pursues supposedly better approaches to religion and politics. (I discussed Vanderslice and Sapp's views and related matters in an essay in The Public Eye.)

In any case, the simple fact is that candidates for major offices should be able to articulate how the idea of separation of church and state is in the Constitution even though the words are not. It's not so hard, as Chris Coons so ably demonstrated.

Rob Boston explained well the common sense of why Vanderslice, Sapp, and their ilk were so very wrong about all this:

Vanderslice said she advises candidates to instead refer to the "establishment and free exercise clauses of the Constitution." Fair enough - but her approach is still problematic.

To begin with, the Vanderslice view gives away too much to the Religious Right. For years, these groups have argued that separation of church and state is not really in the Constitution, even though the term was used by early political leaders like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison as well as their allies in the religious community. None of those early leaders believed that church-state separation excluded religion from public life. Instead of abandoning the phrase, perhaps candidates should do a better job explaining what it means and why it is crucial to the American way of life.

The phrase came into being precisely because it is a useful way of summarizing the religion clauses of the First Amendment. To be frank, most people don't know what "Establishment Clause" means, and to many, "free exercise" sounds like a special offer at the local gym. The phrase "separation of church and state" sums up in these concepts in a familiar and user-friendly way.

It would be a mistake to abandon the term. Polls show that most Americans support church-state separation. Only the extreme Religious Right groups want to tear down that wall.

Indeed, Christine O'Donnell as a former top staffer at Concerned Women for America, in many ways epitomizes the politics of the Religious Right.  

Here is an excerpt of The Wall Street Journal's account of the debate:

Mr. Coons, the New Castle County executive, said that public schools could not teach intelligent design or similar theories, like creationism and creation science, because they were "religious doctrine" rather than science.

Ms. O'Donnell likened Mr. Coons's position on evolution to those of "our so-called leaders in Washington" who have rejected the "indispensible principles of our founding."

When Mr. Coons interjected that "one of those indispensible principles is the separation of church and state," Ms. O'Donnell demanded, "Where in the Constitution is separation of church and state?"

The audience exploded in laughter.

The Bill of Rights begins with the command, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," but it doesn't specifically use the words "separation of church and state."

In 1802, however, President Thomas Jefferson used the metaphor to explain the framers' purpose, and courts since have followed his guidance.

The moderator moved on, but Ms. O'Donnell later returned to this question, demanding of Mr. Coons, "So you're telling me the phrase, `the separation of church and state,' is found in the Constitution."

Mr. Coons began reciting the Establishment Clause, as it is known, prompting Ms. O'Donnell to ask, "That's in the First Amendment?"




Display:
is all over the news, and reporters act like it is shocking and new that anyone would be confused about separation of church and state.

The good news is that people are talking about it knowledgeably and matter of factly -- as if there had never been any controversies about the phrase and whether or not is it in the Constitution.

by Frederick Clarkson on Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 01:42:26 AM EST

Their story seems a bit more matter-of-fact, like questioning the separation of church and state is acceptable.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20101020/APP/1010200575

Nowhere in the article did it say that the crowd laughed.  In fact, my reading of the article suggests that 'the crowd' actually found her stance worthy of comment- and not worthy of derision.

What is funny (in a scary way) is this sort of candidate is not that unusual.  One of the candidates (Tea Party) for congress from this area (Randy Wilkerson) said when asked why he was running "We need somebody to be the whip hand of Jesus and drive out the money changers".  

They also say of him that he has a "Servant's heart"... there is a lot of dominionist dog-whistle going about him.  I've forgotten which church he goes to, but from what I've read, the dominionists strongly approve of him.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20101019/NEWS/10195033/1410?Titl e=Colorful-Controversial-Congressional-Candidate-Marches-to-a-Dif ferent-Beat

The sad and scary thing is that he actually might have a chance of winning.


by ArchaeoBob on Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 10:31:19 AM EST
Parent

Bob, I posted my comment below before seeing yours.  The coverage I watched last night (on CNN) showed the crowd's shock, but now I'm also seeing coverage that leaves that out.  CNN included a Tea Party representative, whose name I don't recall, defending O'Donnell's claim that blocking creationism/intelligent design from public schools was overstepping the constraints of the Constitution, and also used the  Religious Right talking point that secularism is a competing religion.

Speaking of two different worlds, there are groups who view O'Donnell's comments as reasonable and part of their worldview (and are teaching this in schools, ROTC, etc.), while others are laughing out loud at her comments.  One of the more remarkable revelations about this episode may be that the latter is woefully unaware of the existence of the former.

   

by Rachel Tabachnick on Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 11:58:09 AM EST
Parent

It seems to me that only a tiny few outside those who support that worldview know about it- and laugh about it or dismiss it as "crazy backwoods religious nuts".

Even some of those who recognize dominionism as a problem don't seem to want to recognize how pervasive it is, or how dangerous.  (Granted, they are more prevalent in some areas than others.)

The news media is part of the problem.  Only when it becomes profitable will they take notice- and they may be blocked from reporting it by their employers.

The ACLU has a report that just came out about the Tea Party.  People I know are starting to talk about the report- but after looking it over a little, I found little discussion of dominionism or theocracy (it WAS mentioned at one point, but that was it).  The report focused more on the political angle and the racism/homophobia angle, but neglected the really strong issue- their connection to religious extremism/fundamentalism/dominionism.  We know the connections between the two groups... but people just don't seem to want to see it.

Maybe it's an American cultural blind spot?  One that reveals itself in "But it's a CHURCH, it can't be THAT BAD!"?

by ArchaeoBob on Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 03:09:16 PM EST
Parent

That should read "and the others laugh about it or dismiss it as "crazy backwoods religious nuts".


by ArchaeoBob on Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 03:10:44 PM EST
Parent





O'Donnell's conviction that the Bill of Rights says nothing concerning separation of church and state didn't surprise me. What did shock me was O'Donnell's apparent ignorance of what, as Fred points out, are widely disseminated talking points used to attack separation of church and state.

There are training courses taking place all around the country led by Barton's Wallbuilders, the Worldview Weekend crowd, the Providence Foundation, etc.  Like the parallel movement to get creationism in public schools,  their pseudo-histories have become increasingly sophisticated.  The Founders Values group that O'Donnell thanked when she won the primary, market Barton's media on their website, but it appears that she only absorbed the bumper sticker version.

As Chris Rodda has pointed out, we are just now seeing the tip of this iceberg.  Many of textbooks used by the above groups were first published in the 1980s or later.  In presentations I have shown the development of David Barton's work from books like his 1992 The Myth of Separation which was self-published and not at all subtle,  to more recent slick publications which have been marketed in major bookstores by mainstream publishers.  A similar increase in sophistication can be seen in creationist texts. We should expect that there will be future candidates of the Tea Party (or whatever group becomes the representative of this worldview) that will be better prepared and more polished than the current crop of O'Donnell, Angle, Rand, and others.

by Rachel Tabachnick on Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 11:03:31 AM EST

I think a lot of people get it that we are talking about different worldviews.  

What a lot of people don't get is that the worldviews of the Religious Right are creeping into the Democratic Party and are being passed off as part of the development of smart strategy. This in itself might be unremarkable, politics being what it is, but what to me is astounding and profoundly concerning, is how little remarked upon these things have been, let alone opposed.

by Frederick Clarkson on Thu Oct 21, 2010 at 12:39:47 AM EST
Parent

Trusting a dominionist (or listening to them) is like carrying a viper.  (I grant that maybe some of the Democrats have not heard the truth about dominionism- or never realized that the threat was real.)

Maybe you know the story about the boy who carried a viper across the river???  (In some versions the story might be the scorpion and the frog.)  In both versions I've heard, the poisonous animal tells the victim that it was their nature to kill.  (In the version I first heard- the viper tells the little boy that he knew what it was when he picked it up, yet the boy had foolishly trusted his promises and pleas for help.)

Even as I tried to warn the jerk in the church we used to attend that allowing "ministerial College students" from the local Assemblies of God "Bible College" to take positions* in his church was a BAD BAD idea, so I wish there were more of us trying to warn the Democrats (the local group I am semi-active with resist STRONGLY against the idea that any "Church" would try to overthrow the constitution, or that they could have bad motives).  The Democrats NEED to clean house!  First, however, they need to realize what is happening around and TO them.  (I just wish the Republicans would do the same... but I'm afraid they're too far gone to come back.)

It's tough when you're almost the lone voice and others are trying to drown you out and shut you up.  We MUST keep trying.  The consequences of failure would be disastrous for the world in general - for some of us certainly lethal.  

*- That is the modus operandi I have observed over the last 33 years, and was deliberately taught to the AoG ministerial students I hung out with when I was Pentecostal... they go in (usually in pairs- often a 'noisy' active one and a 'quiet' behind-the-scenes one), try to get into positions of authority, and then start trying to 'wake up that sleeping church' or 'lead the people to salvation'.

by ArchaeoBob on Fri Oct 22, 2010 at 09:57:14 AM EST
Parent




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"One need not accept any of those views to agree that they had appealed to real concerns of real people, not to mindless, unreasoning......
By wilkyjr (70 comments)
Betsy DeVos's Mudsill View of Public Education
My Talk to Action colleague Rachel Tabachnick has been doing yeoman's work in explaining Betsy DeVos's long-term strategy for decimating universal public education. If......
By Frank Cocozzelli (80 comments)
Prince and DeVos Families at Intersection of Radical Free Market Privatizers and Religious Right
This post from 2011 surfaces important information about President-Elect Trump's nominee for Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos. -- FC Erik Prince, Brother of Betsy......
By Rachel Tabachnick (218 comments)

Respect for Others? or Political Correctness?
The term "political correctness" as used by Conservatives and Republicans has often puzzled me: what exactly do they mean by it? After reading Chip Berlin's piece here-- http://www.talk2action.org/story/2016/7/21/04356/9417 I thought about what he explained......
MTOLincoln (253 comments)
Fear
What I'm feeling now is fear.  I swear that it seems my nightmares are coming true with this new "president".  I'm also frustrated because so many people are not connecting all the dots! I've......
ArchaeoBob (107 comments)
"America - love it or LEAVE!"
I've been hearing that and similar sentiments fairly frequently in the last few days - far FAR more often than ever before.  Hearing about "consequences for burning the flag (actions) from Trump is chilling!......
ArchaeoBob (214 comments)
"Faked!" Meme
Keep your eyes and ears open for a possible move to try to discredit the people openly opposing Trump and the bigots, especially people who have experienced terrorism from the "Right"  (Christian Terrorism is......
ArchaeoBob (165 comments)
More aggressive proselytizing
My wife told me today of an experience she had this last week, where she was proselytized by a McDonald's employee while in the store. ......
ArchaeoBob (163 comments)
See if you recognize names on this list
This comes from the local newspaper, which was conservative before and took a hard right turn after it was sold. Hint: Sarah Palin's name is on it!  (It's also connected to Trump.) ......
ArchaeoBob (169 comments)
Unions: A Labor Day Discussion
This is a revision of an article which I posted on my personal board and also on Dailykos. I had an interesting discussion on a discussion board concerning Unions. I tried to piece it......
Xulon (180 comments)
Extremely obnoxious protesters at WitchsFest NYC: connected to NAR?
In July of this year, some extremely loud, obnoxious Christian-identified protesters showed up at WitchsFest, an annual Pagan street fair here in NYC.  Here's an account of the protest by Pagan writer Heather Greene......
Diane Vera (130 comments)
Capitalism and the Attack on the Imago Dei
I joined this site today, having been linked here by Crooksandliars' Blog Roundup. I thought I'd put up something I put up previously on my Wordpress blog and also at the DailyKos. As will......
Xulon (331 comments)
History of attitudes towards poverty and the churches.
Jesus is said to have stated that "The Poor will always be with you" and some Christians have used that to refuse to try to help the poor, because "they will always be with......
ArchaeoBob (149 comments)
Alternate economy medical treatment
Dogemperor wrote several times about the alternate economy structure that dominionists have built.  Well, it's actually made the news.  Pretty good article, although it doesn't get into how bad people could be (have been)......
ArchaeoBob (90 comments)
Evidence violence is more common than believed
Think I've been making things up about experiencing Christian Terrorism or exaggerating, or that it was an isolated incident?  I suggest you read this article (linked below in body), which is about our great......
ArchaeoBob (214 comments)

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