First Freedom First
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Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 01:06:13 PM EST


Americans United and the Interfaith Alliance have combined forces to encourage all Americans to put "First Freedom First."

As James Madison circulated his Memorial and Remonstrance with petitions to gather support for Thomas Jefferson's Act for Establishing Religious Freedom, the First Freedom First organization is circulating a petition to get signatures from citizens who are interested in safeguarding separation of church and state and preserving religious liberty for all Americans.

Here are links to a couple brief videos (about 90 seconds) that discuss our concern for Democracy Not Theocracy and End of Life Care.

I encourage all freedom-loving Americans to sign the petition, tell your friends, encourage them to sign it, and host a house party to discuss this issue.  

Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists are already planning house parties in Norman and Oklahoma City.

This entry is cross-posted from the Mainstream Baptist weblog.



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First Freedom First | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 hidden)
Be Proactive (none / 0)
If you are tired of always reacting to what the Religious Right is doing, this is a good way to be proactive about your commitment to church-state separation.

by Mainstream Baptist on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 01:08:37 PM EST

Thanks (none / 0)
This is a good one.

by Carlos on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 01:46:57 PM EST

A thought... (none / 0)
While I understand and on most levels support this idea, I can't help but say "Hold on for a moment."  What gives me pause here is that I haev strong moral convictions.  Some fo the things that my taxes pay for are opposed to those convictions.  Just as I shouldn't legislate my morality on other people, they shouldn't legislate THEIR morality onto me. 

The problem is never as simple as it seems.  Sadly, because too many people have diametrically opposed value systems or views on life, the debate over what is and isn't "moral legislation" that shouldn't be allowed will always continue. 


I realise that while the linked site deals primarily with first amendment rights and not so much moral legislature, in my mind the two are too similar to be separated.  My morality comes from my Christianity.  I know devote Muslims who are very moral because of their faith as well.  For me, the two cannot be separated.  I am moral because I have faith.  (The converse is NOT true.)   While this is certainly not true of everyone else, for a numebr of people.  The problem is that what one person calls "murder" another calls "choice."  Or Right to Die.  Or whatever else.

I guess, in short, we ALL, in some form or another, attmpt to legislate our morals (to greater and lesser degrees).  It's just too bad we don't all share the same ones.



by Luke on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 01:56:40 PM EST
Morality does not require faith (none / 0)
I just had this discussion with my evangelical brother (with whom I often argue these matters):  Morals need not be based upon any religion whatsoever.  One does not require the other.

Atheists may be moral people, as may be people who have no notion of a god.  This is a common mistake--that one MUST have a religious foundation to have morals.  Morals are a philisophical construct that might be predicated on a religious foundation, but can nevertheless be effective and useful without religion.

by Pauljaxon on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 06:05:57 PM EST
Parent

I agree (none / 0)
I am not religious, but I have a very strong sense of morality, and I resent people who tell me that I cannot be moral without faith. That's like saying you can't have language or communication without speaking English.

Morality without religion requires a particular strength of character and a certain internal guidance and faith in oneself that is not easy to gain.

Our founding fathers understood this, and tried to craft that strength into the foundation of this country. That foundation is now being actively dismantled and eroded by religious forces.

by Lorie Johnson on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 07:45:22 PM EST
Parent

Besides.... (none / 0)
...once you connect morals with religion it then becomes a matter of which religion to connect the morals to.  This kind of thinking leads to out current world situation.  Morality based apart from religion certainly has a better chance of being adopted by the many.  

You also hit on something interesting with your assertion that "Morality without religion requires a particular strength of character and a certain internal guidance and faith in oneself that is not easy to gain".  Quite a concept!  To me the converse is: religion has done all the work for you!  Just believe what we tell you and all will be well.  

I prefer my morality to have some strength of character and internal guidance.  Nicely stated, Lorie!

by Pauljaxon on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 01:32:49 PM EST
Parent

Sorry! (none / 0)
I didn't mean to imply that no one can have morals without faith.  My statements were there simply to say that for many, morals come from faith.  I should have included that there are a number of people who are extremely moral and who are athiestic (as you all pointed out).  Again, I apologize for not conveying that clearly.

What I meant to address with my post was that people of all varying beliefs, morals and paths of life attempt to legislate things that they feel strongly about.  Right now the debates rage about Reproductive Health and Right to Die.  As many people as there are, there is no way we will ever all come to a comfortable/acceptable conclusion, because too many people are on the oppposite sides of the fence of what they feel is okay.

by Luke on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 02:15:35 PM EST
Parent
Thanks for the clarification..... (none / 0)
....I, too, am becoming a more precise author as I add to my posting experience.  Often a thought I had clear in mind doesn't translate well to the website because of my muddled writing.  

Just another terrific perk of partaking of this social experiment; improved critical thinking skills, better writing skills and of course (with this site) slowly learned spelling skills.  

Peace...

Paul

by Pauljaxon on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 02:40:34 PM EST
Parent

excellent point (none / 0)
and music to my ears.  One of the purposes of this site is indeed, to compel all of us to improve our communications skills, and in so doing, increase our capacity, individually and collectively, to better undertake the tasks before us.  It does not take long, I might add, to get past our pet theories, and pet phrasings to enter into a wider conversation. The knowledge and the skills that we bring to that conversation are enhanced by all that we do here.

It is that warts-and-all quality to a large site like this that is part of the project. It is hard to know what we need to improve on, unless we can see it clearly. It is also refreshing to see improvements as we go forward. We are learning in the open around here. I learn new things all the time and I think my writing has improved as well. I know this is true for many of us.

by Frederick Clarkson on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 03:15:40 PM EST
Parent

If only.... (none / 0)
we could use this type of gentle, thoughtful forum in our daily discourse with the "right" who want to destroy our way of life!  My continued experience with them is that they care nothing for facts, only for asserting their crisis du jour.  

by Pauljaxon on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 03:34:51 PM EST
Parent
well, (none / 0)
like in any other area of life, there are some people you can talk to, and some people you can't.

Part of the task is figuring out who to talk to, and how to talk to talk to them. It requires different terms with different emphases for different ocasions.

That is one reason why it is important for people to temper their language here. We can't even talk with each other if we do the blogging equivalent of screaming-- at the religious right; at each other, or to no one in particular.

That said, there are some people who it is reasonable to expect that we can never talk to.  Those folks are out to win, some of them at all costs.  Some people we can talk to about some things, we can't talk to about other things.

It is the nature of our political system that there are winners and losers. (People seem to sometimes forget that elections are considered to be good things in a constitutional democracy, and competion is healthy.)  This is about politics, and whose politics will prevail over time -- a politics that is more theocratic, or one that is more democratic?  

by Frederick Clarkson on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 04:37:40 PM EST
Parent

You silver tongued devil.... (none / 0)
....very nicely put!

Pax

by Pauljaxon on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 06:15:16 PM EST
Parent






I think your premise is wrong. (none / 0)
I don't think everyone does want to legislate his morality on all of society. Maybe you do, but I certainly do not. I find it hard to be arrogant enough to think that my moral code is necessarily superior to that of everyone who disagrees with me. But even if I did, I think it's impractical and unjust to impose any single view of right and wrong on a country of this size and diversity. We don't need to agree about what's right and wrong on every issue. We only need to agree on one thing; that every person has the right to live his life in accordance with his own moral and religious beliefs. And we as a society should do whatever we can to allow (and possibly even assist) each individual to achieve what he thinks is right for his own life. If this was our goal, (instead of trying to make everyone behave the way we want them to), most of these contentious issues would evaporate. You mentioned the "right to die" controversy. Of course you should have a right to die. As I said, you should be able to do what you please with your own life, regardless of what I think about it. In fact, a right by definition is something you can take or leave. So if you have no right to die, then life is not a right either. It is just an obligation. Leave it to religious conservatives to take something as glorious as life and turn it in to a mere burden we must bare. Abortion, I admit, is one of the few areas that would still be troublesome. But if we hope to ever come to some kind of agreement about abortion, we have to take God out of the debate. As long as pro lifers think pro choicers are servants of Satan, and pro choicers think pro lifers are superstitious theocrats, we'll never make any progress.

by Dave on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 12:02:24 AM EST
Parent
Dave.... (none / 0)
I am confused.  Where does the premise of church/state serparation conflict with what you have just stated?  I fail to see the error in the premise.  Enlighten me?

Thanks,

Paul

by Pauljaxon on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 01:01:13 PM EST
Parent








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